How my husband and I run a business together (and stay married) with Michael

Okay so I finally dragged Michael into the studio. It's been like two or three houses ago since he was last on, and honestly every time I get him on you guys go nuts with the questions.

If you don't know, Mike is my husband, my business partner, my bestie, and the back office brains behind everything I grow.

We've run this business together for eight years now and people are always shocked we haven't killed each other.

So we're getting into all of it. How we split our roles, how we make decisions together, the aligned client thing that took him a whole year to unlearn from corporate, our weirdly aligned money habits, and the time I found out he was sleeping on his brother's couch when we first met (I genuinely thought he'd lost all his money).

It's a fun one. He's an Aquarian so just lean left of centre and you'll get his energy 

👉 Sign up with pay.com.au using code FLOW10.

👉 DM me on Instagram - did you love having Michael on?

Transcript

Ruby: Hello, guys. Welcome to the Flow State Business podcast. I have a very fun episode lined up. It has been a good couple of years since we've had this guest on, but every time we have him on, you guys love it. There's always a ton of questions. Let's welcome Michael to the podcast. If you don't know, Michael is my husband, my business partner, my bestie.

Ruby: Everyone give him a round of applause. Yay. 

Michael: Well, thank you, Ruby. Thank you for having me on. I had to travel a long way to get here, so- From the 

Ruby: lounge room ... 

Michael: from the lounge room. I was, I was very comfortable watching football highlights. But always, if the fans want me on, I'm here, so let's go. 

Ruby: I dragged him into the podcast studio today, guys, and I am always laughing when we create content together because you'll probably hear it in the episode, we are very different, but also so aligned.

Ruby: At least I think we are. 

Michael: The irony. The irony. 

Ruby: Also, it was so funny. I'm like, "Ruby, when was the last time you said Ruby?" 

Michael: I know. 

Ruby: When I got in trouble. All right. So the reason why I have Mike on today is because it's been a little while since we've had a good old-fashioned founder chat, and I don't know, when was the last time you would've been on?

Michael: I can't remember. Uh, I don't think it was in this place. It was probably, like, two or three places ago- Yeah ... where we lived. 

Ruby: I 

Michael: reckon Two or three houses ago. 

Ruby: So a lot's changed in the business since. Heaps, actually. 

Michael: Yeah, lots. 

Ruby: And, but I think what's been interesting is seeing how also our roles have evolved, but I think what will be really interesting is just talking about how we actually run a business together.

Ruby: We're gonna cover things off, like how you and I make decisions, our shared goals, how we manage our finances, how we actually work together as a couple. That usually perplexes a lot of people, not just friends and family, but you guys, when you find out that I've run this business with Mike for eight years now, it's a real shocker.

Ruby: But have you honestly ever felt like it was an effort to work together? 

Michael: Not an effort, no. Not an effort. The, the only thing I ever felt was, remember a couple years ago, um, probably five years ago, it was... I, I felt I didn't have creative control, which I don't And so then I wanted to do something creative for myself.

Michael: So that was the only ever time I thought, "Oh, what am I not getting out of this business personally?" And that's all right, I just started my own side hustles. But that was the only time. But I didn't know what to do. Remember I had that dilemma, I don't know what to do. 

Ruby: Was that during the time when I was still working, and you were building the business in the background and trying to get things going?

Ruby: Or was that afterwards- Afterwards ... once we were full-time into it? Yes, and I... This is actually really good to talk about because the creative control element, I feel is... I actually had a lot of guilt around that because I'm like, "How do I give you more creative control so that you can plug that hole of not feeling like you don't really have a say in the brand?"

Ruby: But that wasn't the answer for us. I love that you said the answer was you going to other sources to find that creativity. 

Michael: Yeah, I think we toyed with the idea of me having more of a face in this business, but it was something I didn't really wanna do- 

Ruby: Yeah ... 

Michael: anyway. So, then it was just a question of, so what do I wanna do as well?

Michael: 'Cause I'm quite comfortable being, you know, I call it back office in this business. I'm quite comfortable doing that. But there was something I just wanted to do where I had, yeah, let's call it creative control, and that's when I started, uh, trading, uh, the futures market. I started writing. I started to do a few little business- Oh, 

Ruby: remember the drop shipping stint?

Michael: Drop shipping. I did a few little business things, and that, and that kept me satisfied so I didn't feel stale, I suppose- Right ... or, yeah, boxed in, in this business. 'Cause 

Ruby: I think there's only so much you can really do once, also you've set things up, 'cause you're such a fast learner, that you crave that sort of, um, variety, I suppose, or you wanna be constantly challenged as well because, I mean, how exciting can you keep the back office really?

Michael: Oh, it's pretty exciting back here. I get to, uh, play with spreadsheets. I like doing the video editing. Like, I'm not very good at it, but I- 

Ruby: You're excellent at it ... 

Michael: I'm not, I'm not a professional But I love, I love doing the, the video editing. Uh, I love learning the new software platforms that, uh, come across our plate 

Ruby: And AI 

Michael: And the AI stuff I love.

Michael: Yeah, not enough hours in the day to learn all that. So it's not like I'm bored, but yeah, I do want more. 

Ruby: That's you though. Like, you can, you can find your energy from within. Is that like classic introvert? But you're not an introvert, you're an introvert extrovert, but you find a lot of energy just from you.

Ruby: Like, you don't need to be around other people to get that buzz, whereas I do. 

Michael: Well, the big difference between you and I is that, like, we get to mid-morning and I'm hunkered in. It could be a beautiful day outside, but I don't care. I can sit in the corner and work. I... There's been days where I haven't gone outside.

Michael: Oh 

Ruby: my God. 

Michael: Where you- 

Ruby: I just can't handle that ... 

Michael: you need to go outside a few ti- times a day. 

Ruby: Yeah, seriously. 

Michael: So that's a, that's a big difference, so I have to remember that. 

Ruby: You're happy to just look at the view, whereas I need to be in the view- 

Michael: Yeah. Okay ... 

Ruby: kinda thing. 

Michael: Yep. 

Ruby: Yeah. I feel like that's ... You're just like, I'm so stressed.

Ruby: Like, even this morning when we were having our meeting, you were just like, "Wow, look at this view. It's amazing." And then there was part of me that was like, "No, I need to get out there on the sand, on the beach," to feel that same thing. 

Michael: Yep. 

Ruby: It's, yeah, it's so 

Michael: funny. Yeah, no, you definitely need to. You can't be in the, the one spot for too long.

Michael: You get cranky. 

Ruby: Yes. 

Michael: So I gotta get you out. 

Ruby: That was like a few weeks ago, I was, like, literally working and working and working because it was pissing down rain outside, and I just was a lesser version of me, I felt. Yeah. And you, I think you also were like, "You need to get out." I'm like, "How? It's like a torrential rainstorm out there."

Michael: Yeah, that wasn't fun. No. That wasn't fun for me for 

Ruby: anyone. But I was, like, literally at the gym every single day. Yeah. Just something to do. Um, all right, so I know I skipped ahead here, but in case you guys don't know Mike, I think you should probably talk about how we did this. Like, who were you before you worked for Flow State Business?

Michael: So I wo- I worked in corporate Australia in financial services. I did that for a long time, almost 20 years. And then I met you, and we were talking about starting a side business together. 

Ruby: Yeah. On our first date, by the way, you guys. 

Michael: On our first date, and we did. So I was... I'd always had a goal of starting my own business.

Michael: I had two goals which sort of conflicted with each other, or maybe they didn't. I wanted to be in corporate and be CEO one day, and at the same time I wanted to have my own business. So it's hard to climb the corporate ladder and have this side business. They don't like that. Employers, uh, often- 

Ruby: Hopefully that's changing

Michael: especially in financial services. It might have changed- 

Ruby: Mm ... 

Michael: in the eight years I haven't been in it. But yeah, so I needed to scratch that itch, and then you came along and made me very itchy, so then we started the business together 

Ruby: Sounds awful 

Michael: Yeah, in more ways than one. 

Ruby: Oh, no. There's our first joke of the day.

Ruby: All right, you guys will get used to Michael. He's an Aquarian. 

Michael: I'm trying very hard not to- ... not to say any stupid jokes or any be sarcastic. I'm really trying. 

Ruby: I love it. If- just think left of center, guys, then you'll totally get his energy. 

Michael: Well, that was one of the reasons why I decided I couldn't be part of the business 'cause- 

Ruby: You are part of the business 

Michael: No, as a, as a face, as a talk- like, be on videos because I'd just say, I'd just say shit that wouldn't make sense to anyone.

Ruby: You, you do 

Michael: go off. It make, makes sense to 1%. 

Ruby: But I love it. It's like, "Go off, babe." Just- 

Michael: Yeah, but you don't wanna record it. And I don't wanna record it. I don't wanna listen to it. 

Ruby: He's classic. He, he'll say things and be like, afterwards, just, "Oh, maybe I shouldn't have said that. Maybe we should take that out.

Ruby: Should I have cracked that joke?" But these guys don't care. They're 

Michael: all good. Okay. That's good. 

Ruby: They're all good. They're fam bam. So you work on certain parts of the business, I handle others. Let's talk about how we landed on that split because, like I said earlier, a lot of my clients... Actually, I'll say a good portion of my audience truly wanna start a business with a business partner, whether that be, you know, their life partner, husbands, wives, et cetera, besties.

Ruby: And then the other half are just like, "Hell no. I, me and my husband would go through a divorce." So we're gonna talk to the people who are genuinely interested for a second, and I always think what has really saved our business partnership, and to a point, keeping our marriage really healthy, is that we have split roles.

Ruby: So how do we... I forget. Like, how did we come to that? 

Michael: Oh, it sort of evolved naturally. Once we decided pretty early on that you're the face, you're gonna do the content marketing strategy. Then, and then I like doing financials. I don't like doing compliance, but I, I, I do it, so that sort of fell to me. So it just sort of, it just sort of after a year I reckon just the natural roles just evolved what our strengths were or who was better at what, and you're definitely way better on camera and talking than me.

Michael: So it makes sense. 

Ruby: I feel like you're very relatable though, in the sense of being on camera, and just w- people would be like, "Yes, I relate to that awkwardness." 

Michael: I think- I think you're biased. 

Ruby: I, I don't know, but- 

Michael: Or maybe I have confidence issues, but I don't, I don't think everyone would go, "Yes, I relate to that guy."

Michael: You do not 

Ruby: have confidence issues. You're the most confident guy I know. But I feel like, yeah, that, that was a moment. I remember just thinking, "I don't wanna have to deal with, like, the ins and outs of the money every single day. I don't wanna do the bookkeeping. I don't wanna do the insurance negotiations.

Ruby: I don't wanna learn the tech." 

Michael: Yeah. 

Ruby: Even to a point now, AI, I know I'm a basic bitch with AI. I don't really, really understand it fully like you do. Like, you're in it, in it. 

Michael: I'm in it, but I feel like I still don't know it. There's so mu- like there's an- Yeah ... update every week, and so hard to stay across. But I got to the point where I felt my role was to help build and protect the business Ruby grows.

Michael: So that's where- Mm ... my role is, my sort of mission statement with our business. And a lot of that, for a traditional sense or traditional roles, I do a lot of the CFO roles, a lot of the operations roles. 

Ruby: Yeah. 

Michael: I do a lot of Kartra stuff and setting up funnels. Ruby will decide what the funnel is, but then I set it up.

Michael: I'll look at different software, such as Kartra and Zapier, or Zapier, and SamCart- A Netlify or Netlify, I'm not sure how to pronounce that, for when we gotta use a lot of code. So stuff like that. And then I'd- 

Ruby: See, I didn't even know we used that. I was like, "What's that?" 

Michael: Yeah, when the code's too big, you gotta use this other software- Compress it

Michael: or platform to... It can hold more code, yeah. Okay. And like- 

Ruby: Where do we use code? 

Michael: In our AI- 

Ruby: Oh my God. So- ... 

Michael: for like that diagne- di- diagnostic tool. 

Ruby: Yes 

Michael: Uh, things like that. And our chatbot. 

Ruby: Yes. 

Michael: Like, there's too much code just for to go into Kartra or- 

Ruby: Yep ... 

Michael: yeah, we're saying. Anyway- 

Ruby: But I will say, like, that's the thing that you will learn.

Ruby: You will learn it... No, no. So I've got the, we need to have a chatbot on our website because people don't know what courses to take, and then I just say it, guys, like very casually like that over a lunch, and before I know it, within a day or two you're like, "I've made a chatbot to solve that." That's our business partnership.

Michael: Well, you can learn anything. It's all on YouTube pretty much. 

Ruby: Yeah. 

Michael: And now with AI, you can learn pretty much anything you want. 

Ruby: But people talk shit and they say, "Oh, we can do this, we can do this," but never do it. Like, what I love about how you work is you just get it done. And I won't know what you're getting done 'cause you're in your own little world doing your thing, and then a day later you'll be like, "Hey, so I've made this."

Michael: Yeah. No, I do get things done, but also don't get things done. Sometimes I'm working on 10 things at once- You're classic ... which I, which I, which I am. 

Ruby: Yep. Classic MG. 

Michael: And then they all get completed at the same time. 

Ruby: Yes. They'll bank up, they'll bank up. Yeah. 

Michael: But I love it, and you, if you're my boss, don't give me too much of a hard time about it.

Ruby: You're my boss. You, you control the finances 

Michael: Oh, sorry, that was just my gin. Yeah, e- uh, everyone, all my friends feel like I work for you and I make your coffees 

Ruby: Really? 

Michael: Yeah. 

Ruby: Oh, like all your footy mates? 

Michael: Mm. 

Ruby: Yeah. They love giving you shit about that. Actually, how do you handle that as a dude? Because I'm sure

Ruby: And, and actually for the ... Remember how we used to do couples ... I was gonna say couples counseling. My God, no. When was that? Um, business partner coaching. Far out, we would be the worst couples counselors. Anyway, um, but when we used to have clients who'd be like, "Hey, we wanna bring our husband on board," you know, like when we did, we had probably four or five sets of clients who specifically wanted us to coach them on this, and what the guys came up against a lot was, they didn't say it in these words, but it was almost like how to handle the ego or how to handle the sense of what happens when their mates give them shit, or it feels like the missus is the boss, or it feels like they're not providing enough and they're not making the money.

Ruby: But, you know, it's kind of that element did come up a lot. 

Michael: Yes. So I don't know if this is the right terminology or not, but yeah, you ... Well, I, at the start anyway, I brought a more masculine energy or approach to it w- especially with sales. Like if there's a sale, there's a client, potential client, we should try and close that client, where you came from the position of, "No, they're not aligned."

Michael: And I was like, "Why does that matter?" This is right at the early days, because I was taught, I was a sales manager insurance for a while- And we had budgets. If you didn't make those budgets, you sorta got, uh, called out, I wouldn't say humiliated, but you got called out in branch manager meetings that you didn't make it.

Michael: But if you did make it, you were treated like a hero. So as a culture, we were just trying to close any sale we could get, any client we could get. So I had to get my head around this align client part of it, and how it's authentic. So it's a real corporate untraining. So I don't know how long that took me.

Michael: Maybe it took six months or 12 months at the start. But if we had any tension or friction at the start, that was probably it. And then when we agreed or established our, let's call it lead generation strategy or sales strategy or sales approach, and that we only want aligned clients. 'Cause I sat back and thought about it, yeah, why do we wanna work with clients that we don't like?

Michael: Why, why am I even pushing this? So that came about. So when we talk to other couples, I was trying to explain, "Well, that was my experience. Is that how you're seeing things?" And a lot of them sorta did that. Be a bit more aggressive, but it's not. Like, and now I'm totally on board. If you put yourself out there, you're authentic, you show people what you're about, clients will come to you.

Michael: They'll wanna buy off you, you don't have to sell to them, which it makes... It, it's, it's a nicer way of doing business. 

Ruby: Yeah. I... It's funny hearing you talk about that because I think coming from the corporate background that I did with HR and on the people side, it was always about alignment from the beginning.

Ruby: Because it's like you hire a bad person, man, like that, that sucks. You know? It's like having to undo everything, and if they're not a great cultural fit. So I brought that part of corporate into the business. Like, even just the other day, I won't go into too much detail, but we had a client wanting to work with us at quite a high level, and I was like, "No.

Ruby: I don't know." And, and this is the thing, like we make shared decisions, and this is the perfect example where I'm like, "Is... This person is showing this red flag, this red flag, this red flag," but they wanna come in at a very high level. But I'm just gonna say it's not the right fit. And I don't know, like the version of you now versus the version of you back then would've answered very differently.

Michael: Yeah. 10 years ago or eight years ago, I would've said, "Yep, let's do it. Let's... We'll work it out." We'll make 

Ruby: it work. 

Michael: Work it out. 

Ruby: Yep. 

Michael: Now we know all the red flags with which one. So if a client has more than two- You can, uh, uh, they're not gonna, they're not gonna be able- we're not gonna be able to turn this client around because- Yeah

Michael: you just know. And they're gonna... And it's not fair on the other clients you've got because they're gonna take up your energy and take up your time. They're usually bad payers as well. So there's a lot of, lot of... We've, we've got a little bit of a formula. I don't know if we've ever written it down, but we know- 

Ruby: We just know it

Michael: what an aligned client is for us. 

Ruby: You've probably seen the effects that it has on me energetically. 

Michael: Yeah. If you can't help someone, if you, if you generally can't help someone, you really take it to heart, which is your, your strength and maybe a weakness that you take it so much to heart. Mm. But ultimately it's a strength that you care that much, and Ruby has the biggest heart on anyone I've ever, ever met.

Michael: She cares for so many people, whereas my heart is quite contained. There's about four people that it can cater for, where Ruby can do, like, four million easily. So that was a different at the start. What are you laughing at? Four 

Ruby: million. 

Michael: Trying to give you a compliment. I love it. Is that too, is that too little?

Ruby: No, I love it. 

Michael: So when a client comes up and they're a bit iffy, and if Ruby feels they're iffy as well, then I say, "No, let's not proceed," because it's just not worth it. 

Ruby: It's just not worth it. It really bottoms me out. 

Michael: Yeah. 

Ruby: And yeah, it's, it happens, I reckon, once a year when there's one that's like so... It really takes me out, and I've had mine this year, thank you very much, and, and, and I'd love for it not to happen every year.

Ruby: That's my request to the universe. I want to discuss this idea of aligned and shared goals. It was actually a question that came through, I think it was the mastermind. Like, one client said, "So I'm making money, my husband's making money. I have this goal, and he has got this goal." And typically it's got to do with, like, I wanna travel, I wanna buy a house, I wanna buy a car, I wanna save.

Ruby: Like, it's really diverse. But we've always tended to have very clear goals, and I'd say for th- 99% of the time very on target with how we wanna use the wealth and the money that we're accumulating. And yeah, what do you reckon has really got us to that place? Or do you think we've just naturally landed there?

Michael: I don't know. I think it's 'cause we talk about it so often. So I think we, we probably talk about it daily without realizing, like daily goals at least. 

Ruby: Mm. 

Michael: We have a sit down on a Monday and talk about our weekly goals, and then in conversation, especially at the start of the year, 'cause that's what you do, isn't it, with New Year's?

Ruby: Yeah. 

Michael: We talk about what we wanna do this year, and you normally talk about what travel plans you want, and I talk about what investments I wanna make. And then- 

Ruby: And what footy trips you're going on. 

Michael: Yes, I, I do like my footy. 

Ruby: So you, you will be all in with a footy/travel trip? 

Michael: Yeah, so one- once a year I play a football carnival for, um, the state I live in, Queensland, with a whole bunch of mates I've got now, and we just love it.

Michael: We play footy, three games in a week- catch up, you have a couple beers. And that happens usually at a, a different location. So it's been in Fremantle, in Darwin. 

Ruby: I'm waiting for the one in Ireland ... 

Michael: Sunshine Coast. Yeah, that's when you wanna play for Australia. 

Ruby: Mm. 

Michael: But that's, yeah, I just haven't put my hand up for that one.

Michael: I'll 

Ruby: come to the Irish one. 

Michael: There's a lot of, lot of training involved. So for that, yeah, I always, that's my travel for the year, and it's within Australia. But Ruby always does- she doesn't wanna travel within Australia. She wants to be- 

Ruby: I know. It's so annoying ... abroad. I wish I did want to, but it's just not, for me, a calling.

Ruby: Uh, maybe I keep thinking maybe classically I'll do it when I'm older. Mm. But I'm just like now, whilst I've got the energy and I wanna be on a plane, I wanna get on a plane. 

Michael: That's probably the only thing we're not totally aligned on anymore. I used to love traveling. Loved it. But then we did it, and we did so much.

Michael: I'm like, "Okay, I've had my fill now." I've seen a lot of the major cities and the continents. 

Ruby: I think you just get annoyed at the waiting. Oh my gosh, Michael cannot wait. Wow. Like yesterday we waited over half an hour for our chicken and chips, and he was fuming. I could sense his energy from outside the door.

Ruby: But you can't ... Like waiting in airport lines and like, it just really- 

Michael: No, the thing that bothered me- Your bug is gone ... in that, in that, that situation was that the, the people behind the counter, there's no urgency. You've got clients lining- 

Ruby: We're on the Goldie, 

Michael: like- You've got clients lining up ... 

Ruby: chill ... 

Michael: but they're the same businesses that complain, "Oh, our sales are bad.

Michael: Oh." It's 'cause they got no urgency. Like have a smile on your face and get the job done. 

Ruby: I will say though that they do have line out the door, so whatever that is, that magic is- You 

Michael: shouldn't take that for granted. 

Ruby: Yeah, that's true. That's true. I don't know. I think there's some psychology around the longer I wait, the better the food's gonna be.

Ruby: They just 

Michael: needed a good manager in there. They're going, "Come on." 

Ruby: You should just- 

Michael: So I wasn't, I was just ... But yeah, but- 

Ruby: Storm the Bastille, babe. Go. But no. Shared goals. Okay, back on topic. What are our shared goals at the moment? So I think this is a good question because we can be so stuck in the detail, like especially because my entire business now is literally the detail, the daily sale.

Ruby: But I think what really balances that out is we have these big goals. So let's share with the peoples. 

Michael: So our routine seems to be we will buy a place And then rent it out, and then move into it, and then sell it in two to three-year blocks maybe 

Ruby: And we make all the profit and then go. 

Michael: Yes. So that's... And so we're, and then we rent for a year, and then we do the process again.

Michael: That seems to be our cycle, you would say. 

Ruby: Yeah. 

Michael: And so now we're at the, all right, we're over renting, let's buy again. So then we go, okay, where do we wanna buy? Which location? What do we want? And we go, okay, we need this much money. And then, well, the only way to get that money now is to focus on our business and how to get the message out there more And then we just focus on our business.

Michael: So the, if the big goal is buying a nice place somewhere now, that's the outcome, and that's gonna come through us being smart and brilliant entrepreneurs. 

Ruby: And we've just really... It's interesting to see how everything falls into place there, because we do want this, I have this dream of having a family home for the next, pretty much, like, until Teddy is through high school.

Ruby: And we see it now, like, he wants his friends over, and they just want a yard to play in and things, and, um, and all of that. And I want a bigger office space. I want my family to come and not have to stay elsewhere. They have their own little self-contained unit that they can come and just stay for a little bit, and all the things, and, and Michael's son, Henry, when he visits as well.

Ruby: So there's all these, like, big goals that we have, and I think as a result, the decisions we make together as founders is things like, you know, when we pull back the team- 

Michael: Mm ... 

Ruby: and we stop paying huge amounts every month to a team, and instead, that gets collapsed into the profitability that we make, or even just going through boring things like software subscriptions and realizing we don't need that, we don't need that, or that can go.

Ruby: These small decisions actually make a huge impact on our shared goals. And yeah, like you said, we do discuss it every single day in some form. Wouldn't it be amazing if we had this? And this is really what I'd love. And even just, you know, you're wanting to buy a truck/van. At the moment, we're researching which one's best, but even that has become a really fun thing to look forward to.

Michael: Yeah, you were very nice. You said, "I'm gonna buy you that, that van for you." 

Ruby: Yeah, but it's gonna have- And I'll- ... like, Flow State business with my face on it. 

Michael: The branding. 

Ruby: Remember, and 

Michael: you were- And I said, "Hang on" ... your 

Ruby: mates would give you so much shit. 

Michael: Well, yeah, for my footy team, they said, "Do you wanna, do you wanna be a sponsor?"

Michael: And I just said, "Oh, I don't think it's aligned." 

Ruby: Yeah. Can you imagine- ... all these burly boys- 

Michael: Old footy, old footy players- ... in Flow State business. I don't think that's 

Ruby: the thing. You know, a lot of your friends are entrepreneurs. 

Michael: They are. They are. That's true. 

Ruby: They... And they're like... I loved... We went to this, um, awards presentation, and the president of the club got up, and he's like, "You know what, guys?

Ruby: Some of us here are worth 20 bucks, and some of us here are worth 20 million, but we're, we're here for the heart of it." And I just really felt that. That was such a good line. 

Michael: Well, once you put the jumper on, you're a team. 

Ruby: Love 

Michael: that. And you put your body on the line for your mate. 

Ruby: Oh, tingles. See? This is, that's what gets me.

Ruby: I'm gonna have to tell Dan. 

Michael: It's a pretty standard thing every, every football team says. 

Ruby: I know, but it just, it felt- You play for the jumper ... really good. You play- And everyone in the room was like, "Yeah." 

Michael: Yeah, alcohol. Alcohol might have helped that. 

Ruby: Oh my gosh. Yes. What do you reckon are some of our interesting money habits you and I have?

Michael: Yeah, so when we first got together, I was like, "What's the deal with this chick?" 'Cause she got, like, 50 grand worth of credit card debt and, and all that. 'Cause- Ruby's, uh, all about having fun, so I wasn't too sure. Whereas I come from, I'm a saver spender, so I make sure I save and then I spend that money to go on holiday.

Michael: I don't go on a holiday and then go, "Now I've gotta pay off my credit card." So that was my approach. Fortunately, Ruby wasn't a spender saver. She was more of a saver spender, so that really helped with our financial goals or easing 

Ruby: Before I met you, though, I was like down to the dollar of my paycheck.

Michael: Yeah, 

I- 

Ruby: I was like, I, I'm gonna spend everything on a ticket somewhere. I would always spend it on a flight. That's, that's where I would spend. 

Michael: Yeah, but you wouldn't go into debt for it. 

Ruby: No. You'd spend it- But I had no savings ... 

Michael: but you wouldn't save. Yeah. Yeah. 

Ruby: Yeah. 

Michael: And that was my concern at the start. 

Ruby: No, I never had debt.

Ruby: I think being in the banking, and also in the banking sector, that taught me a lot, and also obviously the way I grew up with money being in and out, in and out all the time, it scared the shit out of me. 

Michael: Yeah, you see, you've, you've got a different money story, um, to me. So yeah, everything I look, I wanna make sure I've, I've got an ROI on it.

Michael: So, yeah, that was very interesting, but I think our money goals have really aligned. 

Ruby: Yeah. And I think what y- your family was very much more on the frugal side. 

Michael: Definitely. 

Ruby: And they were very just... They were very good savers, right? They really lived within their means, and it was very much like keep it contained.

Ruby: We don't do fancy things. Like y- would you guys ever go out to restaurants like once a week? 

Michael: Oh, no. 

Ruby: Never? 

Michael: Never. 

Ruby: Yeah, so there was that. And then I think, I remember you were saying, I hope you don't mind me sharing, but you were saying like when your mom passed, you were like, "Wait." Wasn't that like an awakening moment for you?

Michael: There was a big awakenings. Yeah, so Mom and Dad would salary sacrifice a lot of their, their pay into superannuation, long-term savings that you get when you retire. And poor Mom, she didn't make it to retirement, so she never got to enjoy, you know, all her dreams of traveling and that, waiting for, waiting for the retirement to happen.

Michael: So that was a big eye-opener for me, and maybe I went too far the other way. I got a bit reckless at one stage, a bit of grief and all that. Uh, so I didn't save as much, and I tried. I go, "Yeah, we've gotta take more risks in life and maybe spend a bit more." So that's why that... Actually meeting you and then going, yeah, I had no hesitation starting a business because I didn't wanna have that regret when I got older, but not just that.

Michael: You just don't know what, what could happen. 

Ruby: Mm. 

Michael: So, yeah, that's a bit- 

Ruby: I remember when when we first talked about moving in together and we had that financial talk, and I was thinking... As context for you guys, when I first met Michael, he was living with his brother, 'cause of reasons, and he was sleeping on his brother's roll-out mattress And I was like, "Oh my gosh, is this guy...

Ruby: Does... What's going on here?" I had all the thoughts. I'm like, "Maybe he's a gambler. Maybe he's lost all his money. Oh my gosh." Like, and he was very, very senior in the company we worked for. That's where we met, at work. And I'm like, "How is he earning that much but living on his brother's couch?" And it was so bizarre, but you were just saving and saving and saving and saving.

Ruby: And, you know, like, about a, a year or a year and a half before, he'd broken up with his girlfriend and just never decided to find a place of his own, and his poor brother just had to take him in for a year and a half. 

Michael: Okay. Now let, let me explain a bit further, 'cause it might sound like I'm a bit 

Ruby: Tight ass.

Ruby: Poor Dave. 

Michael: Which, which might have been a bit true, but yeah. So I, I rang my brother one day and just said, "In the next month or so, I'm gonna come and crash at your place, 'cause I'm gonna break up with my girlfriend. You could just- I could just tell it's coming to an end." And he goes, "Yeah, no worries." So then that happened, and then I went to my brother's.

Michael: And so he had a fold-out bed in his couch. I said, "Yep, I'll be here for a few weeks, a couple weeks." And then- 

Ruby: One-bedroom, pretty much studio apartment place ... 

Michael: Yeah, so I was in the lounge room, so I'd, and then I, I moved my stuff. So finished that relationship, moved my stuff to my brother's place. Started looking for another place, but then just got into this routine for brother.

Michael: There was a, there was a pub like 50 meters away. So yeah, we'd get home from work, have a beer, we go to the pub, lots of pub meals, and then before you know it, 18 months had passed and I'd just been living 

Ruby: And he'd never asked you to move out? 

Michael: He didn't... At the start, he wasn't, he wasn't keen on me staying there long-term.

Michael: But when I started contributing to bills and things like that- Okay. Your brother ... I think he, I think he was happy. Your brother. Yeah. And then when, yeah, he was getting his dinner paid for and- Yeah ... utilities, yeah, he saw a financial incentive to keep me as well. And we just got into this routine, so it was great.

Michael: Yeah, no, my brother was great bringing me in, but it was probably time that I did find my own place. 

Ruby: So you guys, you know, like when I, when I heard that, when he invited me over to Dave's house, I was like, "What's happening here?" But I really have to say, your financial habits taught me a lot as well. It's m- my financial, w- um, I'll say rhythm or routine or my belief systems shifted and become so much more confident because of what you've taught me around money.

Ruby: And now I think I've kind of swung the other way. Like, I very rarely spend on me. I very rarely spend on me. I don't know what's happened lately, but I just am like, nope, like I've got this one goal. I wanna keep things like in the business as much as possible, if not growing our financials so that we can have this big dream house.

Ruby: And I, I feel like that's probably gonna loosen up hopefully, but I just, yeah, it's kind of gotten to the point where I probably should reward myself a little bit more these days. But it's, it's really nice to have a business partner and a husband who we can talk a lot transparently about money, and we've always been that way.

Ruby: If I see a coaching program that I wanna join or a mastermind, I'll say, "Hey, I'm really interested in being a part of this." And then you'll be like, "How much is it?" And Scott's was like 30 grand or something, and you're like, "Okay, let's make it work." And it, it's never like sometimes I'll get these clues from my clients and they'll say, "Oh, w- I'm not telling my husband I've paid you yet."

Ruby: I'll be like, "Oh my gosh, don't tell me. Just, you deal with it. I don't need to hear it." But we're very open and transparent. 

Michael: Yes. 

Ruby: And that's been something that I feel very grateful for. Because of the way I grew up, it sometimes felt like financial transparency wasn't a thing in my household, and that's a bit of a trigger for me.

Ruby: Yeah. So it's really nice to have that in, in my life now. 

Michael: Yeah. Yeah, I probably was more of a tight ass than not- In one sense. But yeah, living on my brother's couch- 

Ruby: I don't think you're a tight ass, you just, you have a, a, a version of value that you stick by. If there's no value in something, or like you don't find the joy, and neither do I now, but you don't find the joy in going out for breakfast every morning and having a shitty breakfast that costs 50 bucks.

Michael: No, 'cause we're making such good breakfasts- Yeah ... at the moment. 

Ruby: Our cooking's up-leveled. 

Michael: Yeah. 

Ruby: And it's like, what the fuck did we just eat? The ch- Like, what was that for $50? 

Michael: If you can get a good mayonnaise and a bit of dill. 

Ruby: Oh, dill mayonnaise. Oh, that's it for us. A bit of chili. 

Michael: Oh, yeah. Good. I'm on board.

Michael: A bit of chili. 

Ruby: Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, we digress. Now I'm hungry. 

Michael: I'm getting hungry. 

Ruby: I haven't had breakfast yet. Should we take 

Michael: a break? 

Ruby: No, no. We're almost done. Okay. Um, okay. So what do you reckon you'd do differently if you were to start again? If we were to start again right now in 2026, what would it be? 

Michael: So our, our niche or our niche at the moment is daily sales.

Michael: So if we were starting, I'd have that niche of daily sales and stick to it. And then- 

Ruby: Double down, triple down ... 

Michael: triple down. We have all this catalog and backstory of being, or you would of a daily sales expert. But what we did instead, we ch- we changed our niche, niche, and niches a few times. But as much as you'd wanna have that one niche from the start, I think we had to go through all those iterations of our business to get here.

Michael: Yeah, 

Ruby: totally. 

Michael: And it feels like we're gonna stay here for a while. 

Ruby: Yes. 

Michael: But, you know, we'll- 

Ruby: Says two MGs. Dun, dun, dun. 

Michael: But yeah, we, we started, uh, side businesses anyway, career coaching, and then we tried to move into recruitment when we, um, as a full-time business at one stage, and then LinkedIn. And so there's been a lot of different things, but we had to go through that journey to arrive where we are.

Michael: So yeah. I- ideally you'd start in the one spot- And just build your expertise all the way through. But having said that, you know, that's the journey, isn't it? 

Ruby: It's the journey, and it took me a while to realize that everything that we've built and created and done was for a reason, and it-- I pull from different seasons of our business a lot.

Ruby: It's like, "Oh, that time that I was coaching on LinkedIn, that's what that taught me." And that time that I was teaching s- purely on spirituality and how to access energetics in business, that's something that I still bring into my coaching today. But I just really am so obsessed with the idea of selling daily, because I really feel that this breaks down a lot of the BS that we tell ourselves around we can only make money through feast and famine, and that's really what I wanna help a lot of coaches and entrepreneurs break through, that it doesn't have to be like that.

Ruby: Like if, if we were working for an employ- employer, we wouldn't even think about that. You just get paid every day. Like you're-- when you show up to work, you're gonna get paid, and that money's gonna land in your account. So why do we not think that about our businesses? And I think ultimately that's what I wanna help a lot of clients break through, and that's why I just...

Ruby: Yeah, I'm excited for the future of daily sales. Last question that I wanna ask is, and discuss is, what are you most proud of building financially? 

Michael: It's definitely creating the financial independence that we can work for ourselves and don't have to, have to have an employer. You know, for me personally, my, my last employer and how it ended wasn't, wasn't great.

Michael: And left a very bitter taste in my mouth. And so when we started our business, I was like, "Wouldn't it be great that I never have to work for anyone again?" And that was really the goal, that was the driving force. I just did not wanna have a boss again. I didn't wanna be told when I can go to the bathroom or when I can have lunch or all that sort of stuff.

Michael: So I'm really proud and, and grateful that we can work for ourselves. 

Ruby: We just wanted to see if we could make it through the first year. Do you remember that? 

Michael: Yeah. 'Cause I, I got, I got a bit of a payout from a redundancy sort of thing, and then... So we had a little bit of a float, and we go, "Yeah, we'll just go, and if this runs out, then we need to find jobs again."

Michael: But fortunately, we never- 

Ruby: Never had to ... 

Michael: we didn't eat into it too much, and then... Well, we did a little bit, but then- I 

Ruby: thought you said we didn't eat too much. Did we? 

Michael: No. We kept going to that caf- those cafes down in Docklands, remember? Across the- 

Ruby: Yes ... 

Michael: across the river there. 

Ruby: They knew us all so well. I 

Michael: forgot the common- No, what was it called?

Ruby: I don't know. Yeah, all of them. Yeah. 

Michael: Yeah. We were there a lot. It was very cold, wasn't it? 

Ruby: Fucking hell, why did we do that to ourselves? We were, like, freezing cold. But no, it, it's... I feel I'm personally so proud of not just making it, but making it eight years, and I can't see the end of it. I just, I wanna do it again and again.

Ruby: I was saying this to you the other day, how a couple of my clients recently are in their 60s, guys, which I know might not seem... Maybe to some of you, it's like, seems like, whoa, but I don't know, it doesn't seem that old anymore this day and age. It just feels like we're getting younger and younger. But anyway, a few of my clients are in their 60s, and one of them said to me, "Why I've hired you is because I've had a, a fantastic career, and now I'm starting my second career, and I wanna be able to set up passive income, make daily sales, help people, and I want the passive income side of my business to keep rolling in all the way through to me being in my 80s."

Ruby: And I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's such a vibe." Like, imagine our nanas saying that, like our, our grandmas saying that, "I wanna make passive income until I'm 80." I'm like, that is such a telltale that times have changed so much. But I guess the reason why I'm saying that is because, like, the impact that we've made on the world and, sounds so corny, but all the different people, all different age groups- 

Michael: Well, that's what I think you should be most proud of, just the client testimoni- testimonials you get.

Michael: You get such- 

Ruby: We get so many ... 

Michael: heartfelt testimonials. So you are- I'll 

Ruby: share them all ... 

Michael: you are helping people and changing them, so you should be very proud of what you do. 

Ruby: Couldn't have done it without you. 

Michael: Of course, but- 

Ruby: Wanna make out now?

Michael: And now we enter the X-rated portion of the podcast OnlyFans, please. 

Ruby: Oh my gosh. No, I'm, yeah, I'm very grateful for the journey, and there's so much more to come, and I just love this. Well, why did it take us years to have this conversation? Just 

Michael: Yeah, probably 'cause I don't like doing podcasts. I 

Ruby: know. You don't, but I'm glad.

Michael: Thank you. I'm a very busy person. 

Ruby: Thank you so much, babe. I loved having you on, and hope you guys enjoyed this episode. Any parting words to the audience around, you know, just maybe not so much just business partnership, but about staying focused, goals, money, all the things. Like, what is your parting words for the peoples?

Michael: I think a lot of it to be great, and I'm still working on it too, is doing the boring stuff over and over again, and just having that resilience and that persistence. So there's some things, you start a business and it's all great at the start. Everything's new and shiny. And then the grind happens, and you just gotta keep showing up and being persistent and resilient.

Michael: Look, I'm not saying anything new. Uh, all the motivational and successful people out there say that. And that's what I'm striving to do, just try not to get shiny object syndrome, stay focused, uh, and just, uh, have a bit of fun. Make sure you do things other than working on your business. So for me, you know, I love my footy.

Michael: I love hang- having a run around and getting that physical exercise part of it. If I didn't have that, I don't think it would refresh my mind, uh, as much as it, it would. So have something else as well. 

Ruby: I'm always so inspired by you just doing those things and getting yourself out of your comfort zone with, I'll call it, like, hobbies or things that are outside of the business, like life stuff.

Michael: Yeah. 

Ruby: I'm always drawing from you. I'm like, "I need to do more of that." 

Michael: Well, you got more capacity than you realize. Mm. 'Cause y- And you also think, "Oh, I can't, can't afford to do two hours, step out- get outside for two hours because then I won't get this done and get this done." But it really does refresh you.

Michael: For me anyway, I really get, come back refreshed, and then I can work, work the midnight, so. 

Ruby: He, he actually does work till midnight. He just loves it. He's such a night owl. 

Michael: Yeah. I work in the morning, and then I sort of lose focus in the afternoon, and then I come back and- 

Ruby: Yeah ... 

Michael: work at night. Anyway, my parting words.

Ruby: Thank you so much, Michael. 

Michael: You're very welcome, Ruby. 

Ruby: Let's have breakfast I'm hungry now after talking about dill mayonnaise. You guys, thank you so much. Let me know if you enjoyed this episode. Come over to Instagram and DM me as per usual. I love your DMs after the podcast. It's always a vibe. And I will see you all next week.

Ruby: Mwah. Big kisses.